Very much enjoyed this, as a breath of youthful fresh air. The naïveté and fragility of youth, the self-obsession reflected in the almost comic ignorance of his impact on others, especially those not of his class. The translation really holds up as well - I feared it might read as more old-fashioned as it does.
Coming at it from a 21st century perspective, the nature of the relationship does feel fraught with uncomfortable overtones, but I think it's important to set it in the context of its own time. It's also salutary to remember that, as much as this now reads as almost a parody of the Romantic Novel, it was a forerunner, a progenitor of the genre.
Werther is also, to my mind at least, aware of the strength of his passions, and of what they might lead to, but for the moment he is revelling in that strength, in a state of heightened emotion emphasised by what he sees as the bountiful natural environment. I think Goethe plays on this, knowing that we, the reader, will want to read on to find out what happens, knowing it cannot be happy.
I really enjoyed Book 1 - thanks, Henry! Such a propulsive, poignant read. The epistolary form works brilliantly- each letter a portal into Werthe's experiences, each scene charged and luminous. I also like the fact we only see one side of the correspondence and have to intuit the other...
Perhaps the thing that struck me most was how familiar the themes, images and atmosphere felt - it's had such an effect on what came after it, I struggled to imagine how shocking and fresh this must have felt at the time.
I am really enjoying this book. Werther is portrayed so well and seems pleasingly in touch with nature and his own emotions. But then the book progresses and an unsettling feeling grows. Something is just not quite right with him. Despite his connectedness with his own emotions he is very disconnected from the other characters in the book. He seems to sit just outside of society. This makes me begin to question his relationship with Wilhelm. His letters to Wilhelm are so intimate. They read more like diary entries. I wonder if Wilhelm actually exists. Could it be that Wilhelm is imaginary and the letters indicate the to-and-fro of Werther's mental state, both the emotional and rational? Let's see what happens in book 2!
This is my introduction to Werther (thank you!) and I’m struck by his lack of self-awareness. He reminds me of a younger more presumptive Mr Collins, or a cringey Michael Scott without the jokes.
Oh, dear! I see it quite differently - and with a 21st Century perspective, I find it rather uncomfortable.
Werther is not only bordering on insanity, he's also bordering on stalking. Far from finding it romantic, I find it disturbing.
I think Goethe does a brilliant job of portraying near madness, but I'm less happy in the way that this is shown as admirable.
In the section quoted about the waltz, Werther is already showing signs of being possessive - and he's has no grounds at all for thinking he's at the start of a relationship.
Goethe also manages to make both Charlotte and Albert realistic characters. We see them both as they are (being kind to Werther but also aware of his mania) and also how Werther sees them (as sympathetic to his 'love' for Charlotte.
Again, it may be my 21st Century perspective, but I did wonder whether Werther's stories of people liking him were accurate as whether he was seeing things as he would like them to be.
The foreshadowing is interesting. Up to now, my main knowledge of Werther is through Massenet's opera - but the hints of what’s to come seem a bit unsubtle in comparison.
Someone described Werther to me as being a bit of a Goth (no pun intended). There is something about Werther - and the way that readers responded initially - that does make it feel as if he would feel at home with Goth culture.
I'll stick with it because Goethe's writing is interesting - it offers way more than the plot. The descriptions of nature are particularly good, giving a sense of play. I'll also be interested to see how the sense of foreboding develops.
I think, however, there is a risk of losing patience with our hero. I'mnot sure I'm ready to indulge in his self-obsession. (I'd like to imagine some of Wilhelm's responses.)
I'll definitely be interested in seeing how others have responded to the book. Will it be a split decision or am I in a minority of one?
Thanks so much Bren – I agree with you! I think Matt puts it exactly right – because everything is from Werther's perspective, increasingly we question how accurately he's describing the characters and situations around him. What starts as a joyful depiction of young love has started to slip into mania by the end of Book One and we feel the trajectory of the book going awry . . .
I think the 18th August letter is the key to this shift. Werther's strength of feeling and love of nature becomes a nightmare:
"My heart's immense and ardent feeling for living Nature, which overwhelmed me with so great a joy and made the world about me a very paradise, has now become an unbearable torment, a demon that goes with me everywhere, torturing me . . ."
That's useful inight, thanks Henry. I'm beginning to wonder if prior knowledge (I know the opera, and the history about the impact of the novel) works against enjoying. From page 1, I know what to expect so I'm looking for the fault lines rather than enjoying the journey.
In many ways, the trajectory is similar to, say, 'La Bohème' - boy meets girl and falls head over heels but things go disastrously, not helped by his jealousy. Maybe I should try to see Werther as more of an innocent at the beginning.
Or maybe I'm just a cynical old grump who could be a bit less judgemental.
Interesting points, Bren - totally agree with the discomfort! We're locked into Werthe's perspective; everything is filtered through his worldview. I felt a creeping sense of disquiet as the book advanced.
I didn't sense that we were supposed to see Werthe as straightforwardly appealing or admirable - my guess would be that the discomfort you describe may have been shared by contemporary readers too.
I do wonder about that - and hope so. SPOILER ALERT: the claim that Werther led to an increase in suicide might suggest that it was seen, in some way, as positive - or maybe it's just the first real exploration of teenage angst.
It is fascinating how different people can have such different responses to the same piece of work.
Two questions and a few comments! Henry, is there any significance to the beginning date of May 4th that you know of? Since August 28th is Goethe as well as Werther's birthday, that made me think that the dates of other entries might have some significance.
What do we make of Charlotte's venture into literary criticism when she says she'd rather read novels that reflect her own experience?
An example of the epistolary format working really really well is the June 16th letter, when Werther's letter-writing is interrupted by the very events he's narrating-- the immediacy comes through there so strongly.
I'm also charmed by the scientific/geological imagery on display here: the references to "the Bologna stone",+ lodestone show Goethe the natural philosopher at work.
Also, how funny is Charlotte's "counting game"? Literally just counting to 1000 as a group to entertain themselves. Probably harder than it seems, but I still chuckled.
I found it so interesting that we only see Werther’s letters! There were many times that this almost felt like diary entries, until that bubble is popped when we see Werther react directly to something that Wilhelm has written to him (see August 8th and September 3rd). I liked how these moments bring not only Werther back to reality but also the reader. It makes me so curious to wonder how Wilhelm responds to the letters: how does he view his friend? As a man so desperately in love or someone with a couple of screws loose? Does he read Werther’s letters and enjoy his descriptions of nature and people and see him as being well or is he concerned about his friend’s mental well-being?
I too found Werther quite troublesome - for all the reasons discussed. The idealisation of another is a deceptively pernicious behaviour. Fortunately, it is clear that the author is aware of this when Werther writes, "You say that I can either hope to win Lotte or give up my hopes. Very well; in the former case, try to press on and attain the fulfilment of your wishes, and, in the latter, pull yourself together and try to shake off miserable emotions that can only wear your powers away. -Dear friend, well said! - but how easily it is said."
On a separate note, I found this piece of writing advice to be true: "...when an author writes a second, revised version of his story it must needs be bad for the book, however great the poetic improvement. The first impression finds us ready enough, and Man is so constituted as to swallow the most bizarrely improbable things"
Also, I don't know if your copies have the foreword with a derisory burlesque Thackeray wrote. Quite sharp and funny.
Thank you, lovely to be chatting here about this novel. Looking forward to Part 2
On a re-read, I am going to focus on Lotte and Albert and any small tidbit as to what they are thinking and going through. I know it is all about Werther, his feeling, his sorrows, his letters, and his perspective only; but I'm fascinated with what Lotte is feeling and thinking. I'm not sure I'm going to find much though. And, whatever is there is filtered through Werther.
Like Paula, Lotte bothers me too. But, yes, I'm thinking her and Albert know they are dealing with someone unstable and are perhaps afraid of what he might do. Which informs their interactions with him, and perhaps they do have that 'let him down gently' idea/approach.
I feel like we're reaching a consensus that Goethe, though in some ways so similar to Werther, is playing a much more sophisticated game: he is putting us inside the mind of a flawed, dangerous and potentially delusional narrator, who is nonetheless charismatic and fascinating!
The letter of May 22 ends with, “he can quit his prison whenever he likes.” A bit of foreshadowing, perhaps. That whole letter disturbed me with its philosophy.
Very much enjoyed this, as a breath of youthful fresh air. The naïveté and fragility of youth, the self-obsession reflected in the almost comic ignorance of his impact on others, especially those not of his class. The translation really holds up as well - I feared it might read as more old-fashioned as it does.
Coming at it from a 21st century perspective, the nature of the relationship does feel fraught with uncomfortable overtones, but I think it's important to set it in the context of its own time. It's also salutary to remember that, as much as this now reads as almost a parody of the Romantic Novel, it was a forerunner, a progenitor of the genre.
Werther is also, to my mind at least, aware of the strength of his passions, and of what they might lead to, but for the moment he is revelling in that strength, in a state of heightened emotion emphasised by what he sees as the bountiful natural environment. I think Goethe plays on this, knowing that we, the reader, will want to read on to find out what happens, knowing it cannot be happy.
I really enjoyed Book 1 - thanks, Henry! Such a propulsive, poignant read. The epistolary form works brilliantly- each letter a portal into Werthe's experiences, each scene charged and luminous. I also like the fact we only see one side of the correspondence and have to intuit the other...
Perhaps the thing that struck me most was how familiar the themes, images and atmosphere felt - it's had such an effect on what came after it, I struggled to imagine how shocking and fresh this must have felt at the time.
Looking forward to diving into Book 2!
I am really enjoying this book. Werther is portrayed so well and seems pleasingly in touch with nature and his own emotions. But then the book progresses and an unsettling feeling grows. Something is just not quite right with him. Despite his connectedness with his own emotions he is very disconnected from the other characters in the book. He seems to sit just outside of society. This makes me begin to question his relationship with Wilhelm. His letters to Wilhelm are so intimate. They read more like diary entries. I wonder if Wilhelm actually exists. Could it be that Wilhelm is imaginary and the letters indicate the to-and-fro of Werther's mental state, both the emotional and rational? Let's see what happens in book 2!
I love this idea! Great thought . . .
This is my introduction to Werther (thank you!) and I’m struck by his lack of self-awareness. He reminds me of a younger more presumptive Mr Collins, or a cringey Michael Scott without the jokes.
Oh no! Not Mr Collins?! I do see what you mean though . . .
Oh, dear! I see it quite differently - and with a 21st Century perspective, I find it rather uncomfortable.
Werther is not only bordering on insanity, he's also bordering on stalking. Far from finding it romantic, I find it disturbing.
I think Goethe does a brilliant job of portraying near madness, but I'm less happy in the way that this is shown as admirable.
In the section quoted about the waltz, Werther is already showing signs of being possessive - and he's has no grounds at all for thinking he's at the start of a relationship.
Goethe also manages to make both Charlotte and Albert realistic characters. We see them both as they are (being kind to Werther but also aware of his mania) and also how Werther sees them (as sympathetic to his 'love' for Charlotte.
Again, it may be my 21st Century perspective, but I did wonder whether Werther's stories of people liking him were accurate as whether he was seeing things as he would like them to be.
The foreshadowing is interesting. Up to now, my main knowledge of Werther is through Massenet's opera - but the hints of what’s to come seem a bit unsubtle in comparison.
Someone described Werther to me as being a bit of a Goth (no pun intended). There is something about Werther - and the way that readers responded initially - that does make it feel as if he would feel at home with Goth culture.
I'll stick with it because Goethe's writing is interesting - it offers way more than the plot. The descriptions of nature are particularly good, giving a sense of play. I'll also be interested to see how the sense of foreboding develops.
I think, however, there is a risk of losing patience with our hero. I'mnot sure I'm ready to indulge in his self-obsession. (I'd like to imagine some of Wilhelm's responses.)
I'll definitely be interested in seeing how others have responded to the book. Will it be a split decision or am I in a minority of one?
Thanks so much Bren – I agree with you! I think Matt puts it exactly right – because everything is from Werther's perspective, increasingly we question how accurately he's describing the characters and situations around him. What starts as a joyful depiction of young love has started to slip into mania by the end of Book One and we feel the trajectory of the book going awry . . .
I think the 18th August letter is the key to this shift. Werther's strength of feeling and love of nature becomes a nightmare:
"My heart's immense and ardent feeling for living Nature, which overwhelmed me with so great a joy and made the world about me a very paradise, has now become an unbearable torment, a demon that goes with me everywhere, torturing me . . ."
That's useful inight, thanks Henry. I'm beginning to wonder if prior knowledge (I know the opera, and the history about the impact of the novel) works against enjoying. From page 1, I know what to expect so I'm looking for the fault lines rather than enjoying the journey.
In many ways, the trajectory is similar to, say, 'La Bohème' - boy meets girl and falls head over heels but things go disastrously, not helped by his jealousy. Maybe I should try to see Werther as more of an innocent at the beginning.
Or maybe I'm just a cynical old grump who could be a bit less judgemental.
Interesting points, Bren - totally agree with the discomfort! We're locked into Werthe's perspective; everything is filtered through his worldview. I felt a creeping sense of disquiet as the book advanced.
I didn't sense that we were supposed to see Werthe as straightforwardly appealing or admirable - my guess would be that the discomfort you describe may have been shared by contemporary readers too.
I do wonder about that - and hope so. SPOILER ALERT: the claim that Werther led to an increase in suicide might suggest that it was seen, in some way, as positive - or maybe it's just the first real exploration of teenage angst.
It is fascinating how different people can have such different responses to the same piece of work.
At first I read in your post “possessed,” rather than possessive. Both words could describe him.
Two questions and a few comments! Henry, is there any significance to the beginning date of May 4th that you know of? Since August 28th is Goethe as well as Werther's birthday, that made me think that the dates of other entries might have some significance.
What do we make of Charlotte's venture into literary criticism when she says she'd rather read novels that reflect her own experience?
An example of the epistolary format working really really well is the June 16th letter, when Werther's letter-writing is interrupted by the very events he's narrating-- the immediacy comes through there so strongly.
I'm also charmed by the scientific/geological imagery on display here: the references to "the Bologna stone",+ lodestone show Goethe the natural philosopher at work.
Also, how funny is Charlotte's "counting game"? Literally just counting to 1000 as a group to entertain themselves. Probably harder than it seems, but I still chuckled.
Hi Travis – great observations.
Yes that counting game is hilarious! Not the most inventive format . . .
And yes, I've also been enjoying the glimpses of Goethe's interest in science and geology.
Great question about May 4th – I don't know if there's any significance! If anyone can shed some light that would be amazing.
I found it so interesting that we only see Werther’s letters! There were many times that this almost felt like diary entries, until that bubble is popped when we see Werther react directly to something that Wilhelm has written to him (see August 8th and September 3rd). I liked how these moments bring not only Werther back to reality but also the reader. It makes me so curious to wonder how Wilhelm responds to the letters: how does he view his friend? As a man so desperately in love or someone with a couple of screws loose? Does he read Werther’s letters and enjoy his descriptions of nature and people and see him as being well or is he concerned about his friend’s mental well-being?
I too found Werther quite troublesome - for all the reasons discussed. The idealisation of another is a deceptively pernicious behaviour. Fortunately, it is clear that the author is aware of this when Werther writes, "You say that I can either hope to win Lotte or give up my hopes. Very well; in the former case, try to press on and attain the fulfilment of your wishes, and, in the latter, pull yourself together and try to shake off miserable emotions that can only wear your powers away. -Dear friend, well said! - but how easily it is said."
On a separate note, I found this piece of writing advice to be true: "...when an author writes a second, revised version of his story it must needs be bad for the book, however great the poetic improvement. The first impression finds us ready enough, and Man is so constituted as to swallow the most bizarrely improbable things"
Also, I don't know if your copies have the foreword with a derisory burlesque Thackeray wrote. Quite sharp and funny.
Thank you, lovely to be chatting here about this novel. Looking forward to Part 2
And yes! For those who haven't come across Thackeray's verses about Werther's meeting with Lotte, here they are:
Werther had a love for Charlotte
Such as words could never utter;
Would you know how first he met her?
She was cutting bread and butter.
Charlotte was a married lady,
And a moral man was Werther,
And, for all the wealth of Indies,
Would do nothing for to hurt her.
So he sighed and pined and ogled,
And his passion boiled and bubbled,
Till he blew his silly brains out,
And no more was by it troubled.
Charlotte, having seen his body
Borne before her on a shutter,
Like a well-conducted person,
Went on cutting bread and butter.
Yes, Charlotte bothers me, too. In 21st centure terms, Werther is her toy-boy.
On a re-read, I am going to focus on Lotte and Albert and any small tidbit as to what they are thinking and going through. I know it is all about Werther, his feeling, his sorrows, his letters, and his perspective only; but I'm fascinated with what Lotte is feeling and thinking. I'm not sure I'm going to find much though. And, whatever is there is filtered through Werther.
I'm more generous to Charlotte. I see her (and Albert) trying - and failing - to let him down gently.
And, of course, we are only seeing her through Werther's eyes - her reality may be very different.
Like Paula, Lotte bothers me too. But, yes, I'm thinking her and Albert know they are dealing with someone unstable and are perhaps afraid of what he might do. Which informs their interactions with him, and perhaps they do have that 'let him down gently' idea/approach.
I feel like we're reaching a consensus that Goethe, though in some ways so similar to Werther, is playing a much more sophisticated game: he is putting us inside the mind of a flawed, dangerous and potentially delusional narrator, who is nonetheless charismatic and fascinating!
The letter of May 22 ends with, “he can quit his prison whenever he likes.” A bit of foreshadowing, perhaps. That whole letter disturbed me with its philosophy.
the sheer number of times that Goethe foreshadows Werther's fate surprised me!