Austen makes Bath sound like a big little town, doesn't she? Everyone is always bumping into each other and popping over to each other's houses. Even the various "good" neighborhoods seem awfully close to each other. I liked it though, it upped the energy of the novel a couple of degrees.
I continue to side-eye Lady Russel, whose judgment is really setting off my alarms. Pushing William Elliot now? On the other hand, the Crofts continue to delight me. The Admiral harrumphing over the painting and its authenticity made me laugh, and Mrs. Croft cheerfully proves that she doesn't need the Elliots for social status, she's plenty busy in her own circle.
Mrs. Smith and Mrs. Rooke are a good antidote to the social silliness. I wish we had a chapter of two more of them.
Finally, the return of Wentworth! I wish we knew more of what was going on in his head. He does keep popping up, and that gives me some hope in that direction.
Things really step up a gear in this section - and we did end up with a bit of a cliffhanger. Is Captain Wentworth giving up? Again?
It feels to me that Anne moving out of her home environment is a fairly common plot device - think Lucy Honeychurch, Mary Lennox and Miss Trant amongst others - giving an opportunity for the reader (and the character) to see the character in a new light. Even if the characters return home, they remain changed.
And mentioning Lucy Honeychurch reminds me: when Henry was talking about Lady Russell, she feels like a precursor of Charlotte Bartlett - doing what she think is right is society's eyes, but forgetting what it means to the person about whom they are.
As Henry points out, class really come to the fore in this section. Whereas most characters are irredeemable snobs, Anne avoids that trap. I particularly loved the line "She left it to himself to recollect that Mrs. Smith was not the only widow in Bath between thirty and forty, with little to live on, and so surname of dignity." I would suggest that Anne is not somebody to be messed about with: she has the ammunition stored away.
The brilliance of the writing isn't in what is said, it's what isn't said. Anne is voicing doubts about William Elliot, but we've known for a while that he's a wrong 'un - even if we don't know why we think that.
My favourite line, though, came at the end of chapter 19 "the elegant stupidity of private parties". I am saving that line for future use.
I'm now about to lower the tone, so will do that in a separate reply.
Great thoughts as ever Bren – and lovely comparison to Miss Bartlett. I had also been thinking about A Room with a View! And actually I'd been comparing Lady Russell to Mr Beebe, who seems so avuncular and well meaning, but eventually appears as inhuman, a 'long black column', because he can't understand Lucy's love for George. That 'private parties' line is brilliant - maybe we should get T shirts . . .
Am I the only one who finds it believable that Mrs. Russell really was looking at curtains? She’d find them more interesting than Captain Wentworth and might have missed him completely. She has her faults but I don’t think she’d be that mean.
Mostly I’m just glad to see Anne coming out of her funk and knowing her own mind (Mr. Elliot is suss and Captain Wentworth is still her Mr. Right).
Ah fascinating! This is why it's so interesting to discuss different reading experiences. Rereading that passage, Anne does seem 'perfectly conscious' of Lady Russell 'intently observing him' but then I suppose Anne may be mistaken . . . But whether or not Lady R does see Wentworth, Anne believes she has, and is consequently disappointed – even disdainful – of her response and the small-mindedness it implies.
I had the same reaction — I’ve read Persuasion many times and never thought Lady Russell was lying. I thought she just didn’t notice him. And I still think that, although I appreciate Henry raising the question. But we have never seen anything to indicate that Lady R is slippery or deliberately misleading. She’s very straightforward in expressing her views.
I agree – I don't think Lady Russell is malicious or deliberately cruel – but she has clearly had the power to persuade Anne in the past – and for me the curtains moment is the moment Anne realises her friend might be fallible, that her advice might not also be for the best. It's the moment she steps out from under Lady Russell's wing and learns to trust her own feelings and opinions.
Haha I read LR was saying “ I find curtains more interesting than that man of yours “ :D I actually found this remark rather funny and it clearly had its desired effect on Anne.
I wasn't sure what to think. Was Lady Russell really looking at curtains? Possibly. Could she have seen Captain Wentworth but not wanting to embarrass Anne? Maybe.
I think we're really seeing it from Anne's point of view - not knowing what to think about Lady Russell's response.
I love nurse Rooke:”…nurse Rooke thoroughly understands when to speak. She is a shrewd, intelligent, sensible woman. Hers is a line for seeing human nature; and she has a fund of good sense and observation which, as a companion, make her infinitely superior to thousands of those who having only received ‘the best education in the world,’ know nothing worth attending to…she is sure to have something to relate that is entertaining and profitable, something that makes one know one’s species better.”
I’d much rather spend time with Rooke than those snobs up the hill! As a nurse I can honestly say the times I’ve spent with women who are preoccupied with material possessions and status have bored me to no end! Love the contrast and the way Austen presents her characters through such brilliant descriptions. I wonder what her personal experience was with nurses? Thanks Henry for such an interesting presentation of this novel! I haven’t read Austen in decades and am now eagerly looking forward to more!
Nurse Rooke is great, isn't she? Very good question about nurses. I don't know! Do any Austen experts out there know anything about JA's experience with nurses and nursing?
We often read about how there are half a dozen or so basic plots (and you can shoehorn most stories into all of them), and I'm now realising that 'Persuasion' is more or less exactly 'Cinderella'.
Mother dies? Tick! Father bad with money? Tick! Ugly sisters? (If we include ugly in character) Tick! There's even an ugly sister preventing Cinderella/Anne from dancing in the early part of the novel, when Anne is left playing for the dancers. And, of course, there is Prince Charming - although so many are conspiring to keep them apart.
Of course, what we don't yet have is the Fairy Godmother. Don't worry about that too much, Rossini managed without the magic by having a wide tutor. That said, with a change of heart, Lady Russell might make a passable Fairy Godmother.
Great summary, as always. Thank you Henry. You’ve really helped me get back into Austen- not read any of her books since schooldays, but might read another now. 1 more week👍
Thank you for sharing the article, Henry about the geography and how it relates to public life in Jane Austen’s descriptions- that was fascinating.
I have been reflecting on what a woman’s place in Austen’s society was and how they were expected to build a public image ( what we would call a “career” now) by making the right connections and the right alliances through marriage. Lady Russel was a “recruiter” or aspired to be the correct bridge for Anne to pursue these goals for her life. Probably why LR wanted Anne to go to Bath with her sister instead of Mrs Clay.
But Anne is a bit of an outlier in her society ( much like Austen). She is older, not married and almost at the brink of not being a “success” by their standards. But she doesn’t aspire to these standards. Indeed in Anne we find a proclivity towards finding places and people that make her heart happy ( those famous lines about good company).
“…much more interesting to her was the home and friendship of the Harvilles and Captain Benwick, than her father’s house in Camden Place, or her sister’s intimacy with Mrs Clay.”
The Christmas celebrations at Uppercross were described with such warmth “ …trays bending under the weight of brawn and cold pies, where riotous boys were holding high revel; the whole completed by a roaring Christmas fire, which seemed determined to be heard, in spite of all the noise of others” simple domestic pleasures these…
Anne doesn’t care for rank and place as much as her family does. She would in fact be dismissed as not ambitious enough for her time if she didn’t marry Mr Elliott. But I am cheering her on- public roles and image be damned. :)
Wonderful conversation. The only thing I would wish to add concerns the Crofts. I love that they have come along at this time to provide Anne with such a positive role model whom she greatly admires. “It was a most attractive picture of happiness to her”.
I never know what to make of Lady Russel. I remember thinking of her as kind of a bad guy when I read it in college. Maybe not a bad guy, but a kind of controlling meddler. Now, I'm not sure. She benefits from Anne's view of her, and I think that perspective makes her character really interesting. Anne has such faith and attachment to her, even as she's starting to see her faults. We get to see her as Henry points out - interested in all things Bath - things Anne is not so interested in. Weary of the fine Christmas at the Musgroves. Eager for a connection to W. Elliot. She really seems to have Anne's best interests at heart - at least the interests that seem important to people like that. And though she appreciates Anne and sees how others don't, she doesn't really understand her. She's blind to a lot. I think it would interesting to look at her and Mrs. Croft together.
Of course, after reading Henry's initial post about Jane and Fanny, now I can't help thinking of her in terms of Austen herself, which just serves to raise more curiosity :)
The concert scene is so complex one almost needs a white board to keep track of the fraught seating arrangements. It seems Anne has William pegged as a narcissist and is distraught (and a little gratified) that Wentworth is jealous.
How did Anne survive her family and Lady R! Such selfish self centered people who never evolved over the course of the novel. My reading preference is character over plot and perhaps this is why I love Austen. One of the prevailing complaints about Austen’s work is that “nothing ever happens” which I love and of course on close reading is untrue.
Lady Russel really strikes me as being quite selfish. I believe she genuinely cares for Anne but only as it serves her. Anne gave her something ‘to do’, a little project for her to work on when she had some down time. She meddles not for the good of the person in her sights but to entertain herself. How dare she dangle the idea of getting her family home back if she cozied up to W. Elliot. She has a bit of Emma about her. Preferred characters: all the navy folk, nurse Rooke, Mrs. Smith, Mr. And Mrs. Musgrove and Anne. Less preferred-everyone else. Last week I said Mary was on my last nerve. She is joined this week Lady Russel. Looking at curtains indeed!
Austen makes Bath sound like a big little town, doesn't she? Everyone is always bumping into each other and popping over to each other's houses. Even the various "good" neighborhoods seem awfully close to each other. I liked it though, it upped the energy of the novel a couple of degrees.
I continue to side-eye Lady Russel, whose judgment is really setting off my alarms. Pushing William Elliot now? On the other hand, the Crofts continue to delight me. The Admiral harrumphing over the painting and its authenticity made me laugh, and Mrs. Croft cheerfully proves that she doesn't need the Elliots for social status, she's plenty busy in her own circle.
Mrs. Smith and Mrs. Rooke are a good antidote to the social silliness. I wish we had a chapter of two more of them.
Finally, the return of Wentworth! I wish we knew more of what was going on in his head. He does keep popping up, and that gives me some hope in that direction.
Once again, thanks Henry!
Thanks Susan - great observations! The Crofts are wonderful . . .
Keep side eyeing Susan! 😆
Things really step up a gear in this section - and we did end up with a bit of a cliffhanger. Is Captain Wentworth giving up? Again?
It feels to me that Anne moving out of her home environment is a fairly common plot device - think Lucy Honeychurch, Mary Lennox and Miss Trant amongst others - giving an opportunity for the reader (and the character) to see the character in a new light. Even if the characters return home, they remain changed.
And mentioning Lucy Honeychurch reminds me: when Henry was talking about Lady Russell, she feels like a precursor of Charlotte Bartlett - doing what she think is right is society's eyes, but forgetting what it means to the person about whom they are.
As Henry points out, class really come to the fore in this section. Whereas most characters are irredeemable snobs, Anne avoids that trap. I particularly loved the line "She left it to himself to recollect that Mrs. Smith was not the only widow in Bath between thirty and forty, with little to live on, and so surname of dignity." I would suggest that Anne is not somebody to be messed about with: she has the ammunition stored away.
The brilliance of the writing isn't in what is said, it's what isn't said. Anne is voicing doubts about William Elliot, but we've known for a while that he's a wrong 'un - even if we don't know why we think that.
My favourite line, though, came at the end of chapter 19 "the elegant stupidity of private parties". I am saving that line for future use.
I'm now about to lower the tone, so will do that in a separate reply.
Great thoughts as ever Bren – and lovely comparison to Miss Bartlett. I had also been thinking about A Room with a View! And actually I'd been comparing Lady Russell to Mr Beebe, who seems so avuncular and well meaning, but eventually appears as inhuman, a 'long black column', because he can't understand Lucy's love for George. That 'private parties' line is brilliant - maybe we should get T shirts . . .
‘The brilliance of the writing isn't in what is said, it's what isn't said.’ 👏🏻Brilliant Bren.
Am I the only one who finds it believable that Mrs. Russell really was looking at curtains? She’d find them more interesting than Captain Wentworth and might have missed him completely. She has her faults but I don’t think she’d be that mean.
Mostly I’m just glad to see Anne coming out of her funk and knowing her own mind (Mr. Elliot is suss and Captain Wentworth is still her Mr. Right).
Ah fascinating! This is why it's so interesting to discuss different reading experiences. Rereading that passage, Anne does seem 'perfectly conscious' of Lady Russell 'intently observing him' but then I suppose Anne may be mistaken . . . But whether or not Lady R does see Wentworth, Anne believes she has, and is consequently disappointed – even disdainful – of her response and the small-mindedness it implies.
I had the same reaction — I’ve read Persuasion many times and never thought Lady Russell was lying. I thought she just didn’t notice him. And I still think that, although I appreciate Henry raising the question. But we have never seen anything to indicate that Lady R is slippery or deliberately misleading. She’s very straightforward in expressing her views.
I agree – I don't think Lady Russell is malicious or deliberately cruel – but she has clearly had the power to persuade Anne in the past – and for me the curtains moment is the moment Anne realises her friend might be fallible, that her advice might not also be for the best. It's the moment she steps out from under Lady Russell's wing and learns to trust her own feelings and opinions.
Perhaps with age and maturity Anne can see this fallibility.
Yes, I believed her about the curtains!
It works as a metaphor in any case — Lady R doesn’t “see” Wentworth. Doesn’t appreciate who he is or his worth as an individual.
Ohhh … I like that 👏🏻
Haha I read LR was saying “ I find curtains more interesting than that man of yours “ :D I actually found this remark rather funny and it clearly had its desired effect on Anne.
*read it as LR saying…
I wasn't sure what to think. Was Lady Russell really looking at curtains? Possibly. Could she have seen Captain Wentworth but not wanting to embarrass Anne? Maybe.
I think we're really seeing it from Anne's point of view - not knowing what to think about Lady Russell's response.
I love nurse Rooke:”…nurse Rooke thoroughly understands when to speak. She is a shrewd, intelligent, sensible woman. Hers is a line for seeing human nature; and she has a fund of good sense and observation which, as a companion, make her infinitely superior to thousands of those who having only received ‘the best education in the world,’ know nothing worth attending to…she is sure to have something to relate that is entertaining and profitable, something that makes one know one’s species better.”
I’d much rather spend time with Rooke than those snobs up the hill! As a nurse I can honestly say the times I’ve spent with women who are preoccupied with material possessions and status have bored me to no end! Love the contrast and the way Austen presents her characters through such brilliant descriptions. I wonder what her personal experience was with nurses? Thanks Henry for such an interesting presentation of this novel! I haven’t read Austen in decades and am now eagerly looking forward to more!
Nurse Rooke is great, isn't she? Very good question about nurses. I don't know! Do any Austen experts out there know anything about JA's experience with nurses and nursing?
We often read about how there are half a dozen or so basic plots (and you can shoehorn most stories into all of them), and I'm now realising that 'Persuasion' is more or less exactly 'Cinderella'.
Mother dies? Tick! Father bad with money? Tick! Ugly sisters? (If we include ugly in character) Tick! There's even an ugly sister preventing Cinderella/Anne from dancing in the early part of the novel, when Anne is left playing for the dancers. And, of course, there is Prince Charming - although so many are conspiring to keep them apart.
Of course, what we don't yet have is the Fairy Godmother. Don't worry about that too much, Rossini managed without the magic by having a wide tutor. That said, with a change of heart, Lady Russell might make a passable Fairy Godmother.
We shall see!
(I did say I was lowering the tone, didn't I?)
Ha! Genius.
Great summary, as always. Thank you Henry. You’ve really helped me get back into Austen- not read any of her books since schooldays, but might read another now. 1 more week👍
I'm so glad!
Thank you for sharing the article, Henry about the geography and how it relates to public life in Jane Austen’s descriptions- that was fascinating.
I have been reflecting on what a woman’s place in Austen’s society was and how they were expected to build a public image ( what we would call a “career” now) by making the right connections and the right alliances through marriage. Lady Russel was a “recruiter” or aspired to be the correct bridge for Anne to pursue these goals for her life. Probably why LR wanted Anne to go to Bath with her sister instead of Mrs Clay.
But Anne is a bit of an outlier in her society ( much like Austen). She is older, not married and almost at the brink of not being a “success” by their standards. But she doesn’t aspire to these standards. Indeed in Anne we find a proclivity towards finding places and people that make her heart happy ( those famous lines about good company).
“…much more interesting to her was the home and friendship of the Harvilles and Captain Benwick, than her father’s house in Camden Place, or her sister’s intimacy with Mrs Clay.”
The Christmas celebrations at Uppercross were described with such warmth “ …trays bending under the weight of brawn and cold pies, where riotous boys were holding high revel; the whole completed by a roaring Christmas fire, which seemed determined to be heard, in spite of all the noise of others” simple domestic pleasures these…
Anne doesn’t care for rank and place as much as her family does. She would in fact be dismissed as not ambitious enough for her time if she didn’t marry Mr Elliott. But I am cheering her on- public roles and image be damned. :)
Wonderful conversation. The only thing I would wish to add concerns the Crofts. I love that they have come along at this time to provide Anne with such a positive role model whom she greatly admires. “It was a most attractive picture of happiness to her”.
I never know what to make of Lady Russel. I remember thinking of her as kind of a bad guy when I read it in college. Maybe not a bad guy, but a kind of controlling meddler. Now, I'm not sure. She benefits from Anne's view of her, and I think that perspective makes her character really interesting. Anne has such faith and attachment to her, even as she's starting to see her faults. We get to see her as Henry points out - interested in all things Bath - things Anne is not so interested in. Weary of the fine Christmas at the Musgroves. Eager for a connection to W. Elliot. She really seems to have Anne's best interests at heart - at least the interests that seem important to people like that. And though she appreciates Anne and sees how others don't, she doesn't really understand her. She's blind to a lot. I think it would interesting to look at her and Mrs. Croft together.
Of course, after reading Henry's initial post about Jane and Fanny, now I can't help thinking of her in terms of Austen herself, which just serves to raise more curiosity :)
The concert scene is so complex one almost needs a white board to keep track of the fraught seating arrangements. It seems Anne has William pegged as a narcissist and is distraught (and a little gratified) that Wentworth is jealous.
How did Anne survive her family and Lady R! Such selfish self centered people who never evolved over the course of the novel. My reading preference is character over plot and perhaps this is why I love Austen. One of the prevailing complaints about Austen’s work is that “nothing ever happens” which I love and of course on close reading is untrue.
Lady Russel really strikes me as being quite selfish. I believe she genuinely cares for Anne but only as it serves her. Anne gave her something ‘to do’, a little project for her to work on when she had some down time. She meddles not for the good of the person in her sights but to entertain herself. How dare she dangle the idea of getting her family home back if she cozied up to W. Elliot. She has a bit of Emma about her. Preferred characters: all the navy folk, nurse Rooke, Mrs. Smith, Mr. And Mrs. Musgrove and Anne. Less preferred-everyone else. Last week I said Mary was on my last nerve. She is joined this week Lady Russel. Looking at curtains indeed!